Date: Wed Apr 30 09:33:09 1997
From: sabine@Gold.globalcafe.co.uk
Subject: Sophisticated international barter
system in sight
To: econ-lets@mailbase.ac.uk
SKM: Jonathan Cainer, the astrologer of
the DAILY MAIL, writes today:
"There has been a lot of argument lately
about the proposed single
European Currency. I predict that, early
in the 21st century,
regardless of how many politicians hold
how many referendums, a
sophisticated international barter system
will develop. At first,
this complex medium may be used only be
a few multi-national
corporations but eventually it will form
the basis of what, to all
intents and purposes, is a fixed global
currency. Like it or not, all
nations will end up obliged to peg their
internal markets to this."
JCT: Thank you
Sabine for catching this accurate prediction about
LETS. When LETS becomes a big enough sophisticated
barter system,
eventually, it will form the basis of
what, to all intents and
purposes, is a fixed global time currency.
Like it or not, all
nations will end up obliged to peg their
internal market Dollars,
Pounds, Acorns or Cranes to Global Hours.
Date: Wed Apr 30 10:24:06 1997
From: P.North@sheffield.ac.uk ("P.J.North")
Subject: Re: Sophisticated international
barter system in sight
To: sabine@gold.globalcafe.co.uk Cc: econ-lets@mailbase.ac.uk
PJN: Flame alert - flame alert - flame
alert.
JCT: Why would
you want to flame Sabine for relating what I also
find to be a very important piece of information
about future Global
LETS?
PJN: Sabine - while respecting absolutely
your right to say what you
think about what you want - really!!!
On the last day of a Tory
government here in the UK when millions
are voting for some sort of
social change as well. Come on, posting
astrological hocus pocus from
the Tory supporting Daily Mail as a serious
discussion - like as if
any one wants to know - on econ-lets really
does no favours to either
yourself or anyone in LETS who really
does want to see LETS making a
real impact on the lives of those in poverty.
JCT: I'd bet
she interpreted the message in the same way I did
and you missed the message because of
the hocus-pocus style. I rarely
read astrology myself but I looked past
to my initial hesitation
right to the message before judging. If
you had been told that a well-
published futurist had made the same statement,
I'm sure you might
have come to a different conclusion.
You didn't see
the link to Global LETS. Sabine and I did. And
even if Sabine were a devout astrology
fan, it would not detract from
the respect she is winning by what she
is doing. If I, a Bible reader,
want to argue that it looks like the old
debt slavery is in its last
death throes because my interpretation
of the Bible seems to indicate
that the Jubilee liberation from debts
is a millennial possibility and
the speedy technological engineering of
Global LETS also seems to
forebode the usury system's demise, it
has no bearing on whether
people are going to choose to try a LETS
life-boat or drown. What
religion or astrologer I read doesn't
matter.
PJN: While the prejudice is that LETS is
only for lentle-eating
hippies who want to knit their own wind-powered
currency system,
postings like this unfortunately only
perpetuate the prejudice.
JCT: Sadly, all
those who considered first who the writer was
and had their reading shaded by that perspective
must have also come
to that same conclusion, it is true. No
matter how true and accurate
the writer's prediction, many readers
will not have heard what he said
like Sabine and I heard. And yet, this
guy spends his life dealing
with questions of the future. Besides,
I, like millions, read
astrology. Does that make me part of the
discreditable herd? If all
his predictions are as right on as this,
I should follow what what he
has to say about Pisces.
PJN: How is any sensible politician or
unemployed person from a
council estate going to take LETS seriously
while this is paraded as
serious argument?
JCT: I hope you've
changed your mind about that by now.
PJN: I not plain daft, its lining up with
right wing nutters like
James Goldsmith's referendum party, who
promote scare story talk of
euro-plots that we will be forced to go
along with. If this did happen
- are you saying that a multi-national
dominated system would be of
any benefit to working people anywhere?
JCT: I keep trying
to explain how centralization confers no
domination of the Global banker on anyone.
Just like Local operation
confers no power on the computer operator
of the system. Most LETS
handle their operators with democracy,
after all.
PJN: Keep sterling if that's what you want!
Perhaps we should set up a
new discussion group for stuff like this?
In jest, I suggest a title
for a web site: http//.alt.hippies-lets@nonsense.cockaigne.utopia.
Respectfully (believe it or not) as I
know you really are on the
right side of the barricades. Pete North
JCT: I'll let
you explain how nonsense.cockaigne.utopia
translates into respect.
Date: Wed Apr 30 12:27:01 1997
From: jholling@ccs.carleton.ca (John Hollingsworth)
Subject: Re: Sophisticated international
barter system in sight
To: sabine@gold.globalcafe.co.uk Cc: econ-lets@mailbase.ac.uk
JH: Hello Sabine. This was cited for ironic
intent, no? A LETS for
multinational corporations? If LETSers
think of this as a positive
development, our movement is in real trouble.
Solemnly,
JCT: John Hollingsworth,
I can always count on you to stick your
nose in on the wrong side of every issue.
You're batting 100% too.
Always wrong. So you don't mind admitting
that you were so preoccupied
with the occupation of the writer that
it got in the way of your
seeing the substance. I'd point out that
you have been instrumental in
keeping the Ottawa LEATSystem as small
and dysfunctional as you can
and you've been quite successful at tinkering
with Ottawa's new LEATS
engineering design. Solemnly.
You noticed that
I've usually ignored your posts on Ottawa
newsgroups. Maybe you thought it meant
your points were valid and I
was ducking but I was just treating it
like I treat the drivel from
many other pests.
I've been
wanting to cull my archives and do a number on your
erroneous and ignorant posts for along
time. Normally, I would have
just added your failing to see the relevance
to LETS to the list of
your other errors. But your suggestion
that Sabine had to be ironic
goes in with the ignorant posts. Handy
you've provided an ignorant one
as a sample of the kind of nasty personality
you are.
If I read another
insulting post out of you about anyone,
including me, I will take the time to
parse and publish your thoughts
and make joke of every nasty and erroneous
statement you've always
made but thought you were getting away
with. Think about whether you
want many of your less intelligent statements
published for all to
see. Remember that I don't have the time
but if you don't watch your
mouth, I'll take the time to rip your
posts apart with a righteous
vengeance.
Date: Thu May 1 00:23:42 1997
From: stodder@mstr.hgc.edu (James Stodder)
Subject: Re: Sophisticated international
barter system in sight
To: P.North@sheffield.ac.uk ("P.J.North")
Cc: sabine@
Dear LETSers,
While only viewing the UK election from
across the Atlantic, I do so
with considerable interest. I will not
presume to comment on who is or
is not a "right wing nutter," since many
British nutters often seem
disarmingly normal to my jaundiced US
eyes.
However, I do will leap to the defense
of Sabine's posting on
corporate barter, however little she may
need such defense. There is
no way to stop multi-national corporations
from being interested in
barter exchange, and trying to exploit
it. That is part of the
inevitable price of having some economic
mechanism that is both
efficiency-improving and growing.
Besides, corporations ALREADY barter quite
nicely, thank you. In the
US there is over 8 billion $ per year
of bilateral corporate barter
accounted for by the tax authorities,
and a lot more that doesn't get
reported. And most serious studies of
international countertrade put
this market at 10 to 20% of total world
trade, to be counted in the
trillions of dollars.
A LETS association might well decide to
exclude larger businesses, as
the Wirtschaftsring (WIR) in Switzerland
decided to do back in the
1970-80s. They are still doing well, with
over 20 billion Swiss Francs
a year in volume. (I therefore disagree,
by the way, with a recent
comment that Ithaca NY is the largest
or most successful community
barter scheme in the world.) But this
was only after 40 years of
existence, and the WIR still includes
a large amount of largish profit
making Swiss businesses.
I tend to agree with the view often expressed
by Michael Linton and
Richard Kay, as I understand them, that
it is a mistake to try to keep
LETS "pure" from the profit motive, or
from much else in the way of
pre-specified motives. That's not how
succesful economic institutions
evolve, in my view.
LETS are still going to "leverage" many
kinds of progressive social
change, to use an evil-sounding financial
metaphor. But trying to
restrict them too much in the early stages
is a recipe for self-
marginalization, and a virtual guarantee
that the most succesful
schemes will be devoid of social conscience.
//js
JCT: Game, set,
match. This is what I should have said. Calm,
detached, scientific, logical. By the
way, do you read your horoscope?
Sorry, but my
previous vehemence was a function of a pain I've
had in my neck for the last year or so.
And I didn't
say Ithaca was the largest. I said it was the best.
I rated it best because of its efficiency,
not its size. I don't hear
of Paul excluding anyone who has product
to trade and I'd have to
knock WIR down a grade if they've excluded
their most powerful
producers from using their currency, thus
strengthening the confidence
of the more doubtful in LETS and weakening
their reliance on the usury
banks.
Paul, if Coca-Cola
wanted to start accepting Hours from all their
local outlets, would that bother you or
any other traders?
James, thanks
for a great message.