Bank of Good Will
(BGW) email@example.com firstname.lastname@example.org
>Date: Sun May 16 12:03:14 1999 >From: email@example.com ("Markus Helendahl") >Subject: [lets] VB: TURMEL: Social Credit Debate among Friends #8 >Maybe it is interesting for you. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------------------------------------------------------- >Bank of Good Will - a global wealth and goodwill network with great >opportunities. A goodwill service which is free to all small >companies. (Start in Europe at beginning of September 1999.) >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------------------------------------- >Dear company-owner, >Do you need assistance? We offer you marketing, increased turnover >and new business contacts throughout Europe. You can register >yourself as a BGW user now! It is not just free - you get something >in return! >We help you substantially increase your turnover within one year and >it won't cost you anything! You will receive many new customers but >you do not have to sell anything yourself. We do it for you if you >wish. BGW's market is very extensive and we help you buy and sell >anything, from simple second hand goods to complicated services. >Write what services, good, skills you have on offer and also what you >would like to buy, (don't be shy - we can sell large volumes and >obtain almost anything) When you have bought and sold over EUR >11000 through us we do not charge agency fees. You can start with a >10 EUR to test us. >BGW is Internet-based. Everything, including administration and >accounting is via e-mail or fax. There is one condition which has to >be met if BGW is to be successful: >EVERYTHING YOU EARN IN BGW MUST BE SPENT WITHIN BGW. >but you choose the amount. >You will be given a BGW account with goodwill funds worth the >equivalent of EUR 300.00 as an introductory offer. If you sell for >EUR 300 and use up these within BGW then you will also be awarded >EUR 700. NB! There is no interest to pay and you do not have to repay >this amount. Why are we giving away so much for free - where is the >catch? This is because the funds will never leave the network, only >goods and services. As representative of the company you will also >receive a private account with BGW. This can also be offered to your >employees. >Everything you earn is saved in your BGW account -- but we never >exchange this for cash. We do not pay your bills outside BGW's >network but you can buy almost anything through this network. This >rule guarantees our efficiency. BGW increases your economic freedom >and helps you avoid cash-flow problems. Start with 1% of your turnover >in BGW and you will see some positive changes very soon. >If you want to spend your money you can buy anything you want through >BGW (we have a wide range of goods and services and the prices are >lower than normal) If you have a rising turnover with us you can also >be granted interest-free credit. >Membership of BGW is not binding. BGW charges no annual membership >fees, transactions are confidential and the bookkeeping only uses >account numbers. It is of course your own personal responsibility to >declare income in your own tax returns. We do not disclose >information about our members' transactions. >It is easy to become a member. Just fill in the following details and >send it to us firstname.lastname@example.org . You will receive a reply within two >days including your account number and instructions about how to use >the account. What you want to buy/sell are matched with others and can >take between 1 and 4 weeks. Welcome! >I would like to sell: (at least one service including price, amount >and quality) >I want to buy: ( at least one good/service including price, amount >and quality) >My suppliers : (if you want them to be members of BGW) >My questions to BGW: >If you change address etc. just mail us to email@example.com or >fax +46 8 6640771 > >BANK OF GOOD WILL - facts >There are over 11 000 members, mostly private individuals. >BGW is not owned by anyone. It is a service just like the Internet. >All users receive their own account for confidential, internal >bookkeeping. Everyone who has a turnover over EUR 1000 is also >granted an interest-free credit limit from 1000 to 10000, use time >90-180 days. The first time you buy something from the network pool >you pay EUR 70 which is deducted from the price of the good/service >on your BGW account, which is deducted from the price of the >good/service. The entire amount is used to pay your first bill. If >you sell something you are paid through your BGW account only. >When purchasing a small agency fee is charged. >Turnover within BGW at least EUR 1000 - bonus class 3 (fee is 10%) >Turnover within BGW at least EUR 2500 - bonus class 2 (fee is 5%) >Turnover within BGW at least EUR 5000 - bonus class 1 (fee is 2%) >VIP MEMBER >If your turnover in the network amounts to EUR 11000, you pay no >agency fees at all, in addition you will have received new customers >and support from BGW. > >BGW offers you unlimited amount of exposure of your advert on the >BGW's website. >BGW offer you better finances, broader contact network and better >information. >BGW prevents you from getting cash-flow problems, we support you in >the case of difficulties. >BGW acts locally and internationally. >BGW does not speculate with money. >BGW works professionally using a network of linked agencies. >BGW has a standardised payment system which applies throughout Europe >and globally >BGW integrates members' websites if requested >BGW offers interest-free loans up to 100 000 EUR >BGW has a premium and a bonus system for all members who are have a >very high turnover. >BGW insures members if requested. all credit is insured automatically >Do you have goods in the warehouse that you want to get rid of fast? >Use Sale Planning through BGW. We can sell your sale goods >domestically and abro ad. You may also get a better price; you will >avoid unnecessary and expensive a dvertising; you do not even have to >organise it - we will organise this for you if you want. While the >sale is going on you can plan new purchases through BGW. >Turnover in BGW is counted as goodwill between members. BGW is >already a well-fu nctioning system, but we are open for positive >suggestions. We work for a better future and a fair economy.
JCT: Thank you Markus for bringing this to my attention. A quick scan indicates that it could be a nicely designed LETS machine. The fact they've got me quoted and listed on several pages is probably another point in their favor. But a point against is that since my name is the only name that seemed prominently displayed, some people might jump to the conclusion that this local currency had the Turmel Banking Systems Engineer's stamp of approval. I had never heard of these people and I must admit that having my name so prominently cited before knowing whether they had learned their LETS engineering lessons well seems a disquieting liberty for them to take. In their extensive site, I only found one clue as to who xmight be the group or company running it. What if it's a pyramid and bxlows up with everybody remembering seeing only one name? Mine! I'll state categorically their right to try to run a LETS system for financial gain or public service. And their right to use my quotes and web page addresses. Whether their service charges are reasonable or not is of little import. Only whether they're running their LETS right is of import. Maybe while regular interest charges remain so much higher than even unreasonable service charges, why shouldn't users pay premium to be saved by willing life-boat operators. Barter lifeboats cost hundreds per year and up to 10% on transactions. I see nothing wrong with LETS operators trying to win the equivalent in service charges. It might lure the banks into providing them too. All over the world. I endorse attempts to make LETS profit-making ventures for their builders in the early years as long as they accept that governments will eventually provide credit services like many other utilities and they'll be out of that job. But while the need is still unsatisfied, sure, get rich building life-boats if you can. More will get out their tools and join you. It's been said that allowing profit makes it not a LETS. Well, profit is not a factor in the LETS equation and whether it's for private or public gain is of no influence on how it operates. If they've done it right and the service charges are reasonable, I might even join. I'll have to soon pick one. I've seen several attempts to use the Internet to effect international LETS trading but haven't had the need to investigate. But this is the first organization with a name I might have chosen which has cited some learning from me and I'd like to get your opinions on it whether they'll pass my examination or not. Some of you have risen to see the clearer insights that systems engineering simplicity and sophistication can afford and I'd like to give you first crack at examining the Bank of Goodwill design for design flaws. If you find one, point out whether it's tactical or strategic. Correct the strategic error of denying government an account and then work on the tactical error of their being so slow at learning how to best use it. So check these guys out for me. Are the guys at the Bank of Good Will running a good LETS or are they going to blow it with my name tags all over it. I found firstname.lastname@example.org which might be from:
>This is a political problem so you must get involved. It is not >enough to vote. You must get involved at a political party policy >level. Go to precinct meetings. Get a job as a party functionary. >Challenge candidates. Stick with it! It is possible to have peace, >freedom, abundance, and leisure with no national debt. >Muriel E. Mobley, President >Humane World Community, Inc. >P. O. Box 788 >Onalaska, WA 98570 >October 24, 1998 JCT: Sounds just like me. I'll copy this message to them and await the response.
http://www.bgw.net is the web site.
http://www.bgw.net/bgw_int/inth.htm has buttons to my Letslist, John Turmel, my attributed quote about poverty versus scarcity and my two unattributed quotes about their deleting statements against interest from the bible.
http://www.bgw.net/sites/economy/e035.htm are exerpts from Tragedy & Hope and
http://www.bgw.net/sites/economy/e036.htm are exerpts from the Babylonian Woe.
I'm pleased they found these books as informative as I did. There could more buried in there. It's nice someone is spreading the word. But check em out for me and now that they're doing it after studying my analysis, let's discuss if they're doing it right. Even those who don't see how it could work should at least be able to see if they're trying to do how it should work right. -------------------------------
Bank of Good Will LETS? #2
>Date: Mon May 17 07:12:24 1999 >From: email@example.com ("Markus Helendahl") >Subject: VB: TURMEL: Bank of Good Will LETS? >To: firstname.lastname@example.org >Hello John, >Thank you for your attention. >First some additional information about BGW: >BGW was started in Estonia 1997 as a simple and ordinary LETS but >very soon became problems with turnover. Most of the members were >extremely passive. The only way to save this community was to >redesign the rules. I was one of the initiators and felt responsible >to show some determination in finding new ways. JCT: I'm glad to hear about LETS in Estonia. I didn't know.
>The first thing we discovered was that we had too many individuals >and only few companies in our LETS. The proportion was wrong. JCT: I don't think it's a question of proportion. LETS have proven successful with few businesses though the more the merrier. And commercial barter systems are evidently successful. But the problem of little trading is one I've heard many times. It really doesn't matter as long as the LETS is there when the federal currency system breaks down. Then they'll jump on it as the only life-boat they have and you built it for them.
>The second point was that people seemed to be not so motivated. The >ordinary trade was always near at hand and our BGW management, >despite offers from several thousand members, couldn't provide them >with proper service (distribution and marketing). The task was too >big for 22 people who worked mostly without salary. We had no money >to print the newsletter or advertise, we had no resources to update >our computers. Then we decided to use some commercial elements to >survive and we did and we survived. JCT: Glad to hear it. And as I've stated earlier, I see nothing wrong with LETS being run for profit as long as you realize that when the government takes over and provides it for us as a public utility, you'll then be out of business unless you're working for them.
>The point is that every LETS need some professionals who could take >care of marketing and trade. Ordinary people cannot do this >efficiently and it's perfectly normal. Catalogues, printed or online, >are not sufficent to guarantee the trade. BGW uses professional >agents. They take orders from our members and then work to find >ordered goods or services first inside our community and also >outside if ordered service was not found in BGW4s catalogue. JCT: Much like most commercial barter systems. Nothing wrong with that.
>We started just now in Sweden and Russia and hope to build up the >network based LETS in Europe within 1-2 years. JCT: Wonderful. Keep up the good work.
>BGW takes some fees only from new members but after a certain >turnover the mediating service is free. BGW is not working for >profits. Actually, I myself and several other people have together >invested over 140,000$ in private money to keep BGW going. We do not >really hope to get the money back. What we really want is smoothly >and logically functioning LETS network. We are aware of difficulties >and one of the biggest is mistrust. JCT: I see no reason why you shouldn't hope to get your money back. I hope you have kept track of your investments. When I provided $3,000 to the Toronto LETS so they could get a laser printer, I asked them to credit my account in Green funds against the system account. It's still sitting in my account there in case visit Toronto and want to spend some. I hope you have done the same. There's is no reason any investor should take a loss on this.
>John, we admire your work very much and we understand also >your situation figting with unintelligent "besserwissers". JCT: Thank you. I don't know what a "besserwisser" is but I'm sure I've run up against a lot of them.
>>JCT: Thank you Markus for bringing this to my attention. A quick >>scan indicates that it could be a nicely designed LETS machine. The >>fact they've got me quoted and listed on several pages is probably >>another point in their favor. But a point against is that since my >>name is the only name that seemed prominently displayed, some people >>might jump to the conclusion that this local currency had the Turmel >>Banking Systems Engineer's stamp of approval. >It is not ment to display your name as approval, rather that we agree >with you. JCT: I figured as much. I meant no complaint. The fact you brought your page to my attention certainly testifies to your integrity.
>>What if it's a pyramid and blows up with everybody remembering >>seeing only one name? Mine! I'll state categorically their right to >>try to run a LETS system for financial gain or public service. And >>their right to use my quotes and web page addresses. >We do not run any pyramid, MLM or other schemes but we have a good >field-experiance about what is working and what is not working in >LETS community. We have no problems to remove your quotes if you wish >but it is regrettable since you and Bernard Lietaer are the only >serious persons to quote. JCT: No, I was honored that you used my quotes and as stated earlier, I see nothing wrong with using them.
>>Whether their service charges are reasonable or not is of little >>import. >As I said, we charge only new members and after a certain turnover >(11000 EUR for companies and 2-5000 EUR for individuals there will be >no fees any more. We do not have annual fees but the office costs >must be payed. There is no way to avoid this. JCT: Sounds fine to me.
>>But this is the first organization with a name I might have chosen >>which has cited some learning from me and I'd like to get your >>opinions on it whether they'll pass my examination or not. >We really do not build our entire system on using Internet. There are >some security problems and many still do not have the access. JCT: The only thing that you do differently from most LETSystems is that you don't make their balances public. I think you should then you wouldn't have any security problems at all.
>>Correct the strategic error of denying government an account and >>then work on the tactical error of their being so slow at learning >> how to best use it. >It's OK. But it is still a little bit early to offer government BGW >account. We must grow stronger to negotiate on the basis of fairness. JCT: It's never too soon to get government an account because then everyone will want to join. There's no greater incentive to joining than being able to pay your taxes with some of your work.
>>So check these guys out for me. Are the guys at the Bank of Good >>Will running a good LETS or are they going to blow it with my name >>tags all over it. >BGW is not a good LETS. JCT: Sounds like a pretty good LETS to me even if the accounts aren't public.
>It is a hybride from LETS, barter and ordinary commerce. What we are >afraid of is that the hundreds of small LETS communities stay >separated and weak until they die out. If nobody tries to find the >way to unite them, there will not be the future for LETS. JCT: Right you are. After government trading, intersystem trading is the key to explosive growth.
>With best regards, Markus >P.S excuse my English, it4s not my mother tongue. JCT: Your English is quite good so don't worry. By the way, I'll be in Europe from the middle of June to the end of July. Perhaps I can visit you? -------------------------------
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